Crime at the University of Warsaw. The court will decide on detention. The defender talks about the hearing
Jolanta Ojczyk, Business Insider Polska: On Wednesday evening at the University of Warsaw there was a brutal and deadly attack. One person is dead. You are a defender of a detained 22-year-old. How did it happen?
Advocate Maciej Zaborowski, partner at the Kopeć Zaborowski office: I will start with the fact that this is an unimaginable tragedy that should never happen. It's hard to even imagine what the families of the victims are experiencing. I hope that they will get the best possible support from loved ones, but also from the university and the state.
However, it came to brutal murder, and the Lord defends a law student who, as witnesses say, “calmly walked with an ax in his hand.”
Whether this was the case, the court must determine. At the moment, this is, according to Polish law, an innocent person, which was obviously made by one of the most severe possible accusations. Remember, however, that each of us is entitled to defense. And this is what we deal with as defenders. Our role is to guarantee that the actions of the state organs are transparent and the fair process itself.
I hope it will be so in this case. Let us remember that in such cases the judgment is issued by public opinion very quickly. Justice never happens by itself, you have to fight for it. However, media information is not true that my client pleaded guilty
The first activities with the suspect took place yesterday. What did they look like? Was it your first contact with the suspect?
My first contact with the suspect took place yesterday, in the prosecutor's corridors at 15 o'clock, just before the activities we were waiting for until 17. Unfortunately, there are still no appropriate conditions in Poland in Poland, which guarantee the basic minimum when it comes to defense.
Meaning? You did not meet in a separate room, as we can see in the movies, even recently the famous series “Maturing” about a boy who murdered a friend?
Contact, despite my protests, took place in the corridor, among the numerous employees of the prosecutor's office and under the permanent and direct supervision of four police officers. It is hard to have a normal meeting with your client in such conditions and try to determine what really happened. I am talking about it not because I complain. But each of us may find a situation when we need the help of a lawyer. And these realities look quite similar in many matters. Often, unfortunately, the right to defense is violated by state authorities.
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Can you say what the motives of the crime were, was he readable, from where such behavior?
I do not want and I cannot speak about the details of this matter. I will only add that in this type of matters, the issue of sanity is one of the most important circumstances that determine the possibility of liability under criminal law. If insanity is found in a given perpetrator, he does not return home. Usually, in such cases, courts adjudicate the so -called Protecting measures instead of the penalty of Sticto meaning and the perpetrator is placed in a psychiatric institution.
Investigators made three charges: murders with particular cruelty, insulting the corpse and attempted murder. What was the interrogation that lasted two and a half hours?
The suspect refused to answer the questions he asked, but made a very extensive statement about his health condition, about the details that I cannot talk about. I would like to emphasize that I learned about the allegations from the media that informed about it around 15:45 when I was just sitting in the corridor. It's unacceptable.
Unofficially according to the findings of TVN journalists, The student, at the police station, to which he came after detention, was to behave irrationally. Once he was to be completely serious, in a moment to say that “he is a pretator, a wolf.” This can be a indication of some disease?
Experts and research will decide about this. As a defense, we submitted an application yesterday for relevant tests, but it was not accepted. However, I assume that this will happen in the coming days, because in similar matters it is a standard procedure.
However, we are currently at a completely different stage. After the activities lasting over two hours, the prosecutor's office decided to refer to the court a request for detention on remand. The court will decide today whether to put a suspect in temporary detention. Let's not fool ourselves, it will probably happen. These are also the expectations of the public, which in this type of case is a very strong emphasis on the court and the prosecutor's office.
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How much can the proceedings take when the indictment can be?
Contrary to appearances, these types of behavior are quite simple evidence and are relatively short. I think that the prosecutor's office will want the indictment to go to court as soon as possible. I think within a few months. However, we should remember, as the outstanding Polish lawyer, Professor Janusz Tylman used to say – “the criminal trial is not racing.” He is to be above all fair. And I expect that despite the unique nature of this case, all parties will be up to the challenge and this process will be.
Where did you say about the murder? Did you know he would be a defender, what he felt?
I learned about the tragedy at the University of Warsaw like most of us from the media. I finished the Faculty of Law at the University of Warsaw and stayed in these walls many times, first as a student, and then often conducting classes with students. So I know this area very well and it is also a very moving event for me. Fortunately, rare in Poland. And let it stay that way.
How to be the devil's lawyer?
As lawyers, defenders in criminal matters, we perform on different sides. He does not deal with the moral assessment of my clients, just as the doctor does not assess whether the patient he is to treat has committed a crime. Each of us has its own task. I also deeply believe that in each of us, so in the perpetrators of the most cruel crimes, there is good. The whole work of a lawyer turns around the human nature. My role is double – I defend someone, but I also want to understand and listen to him.
Do you often defend in such matters? He already had a similar case?
I have performed many times in brutal and media matters as the attorney of the victims, such as in the famous matter of double murder with particular cruelty that took place at the Philharmonic in Jelenia Góra. There, in an extremely brutal way, a young girl was murdered – a harpist and security guard. The court ruled the perpetrator of life imprisonment. To this day, there is no clear answer why, it seemed normal, a young boy committed such a cruel crime. As people, we are looking for simple answers to the questions that bother us. And there are often no such answers. The human psyche and life itself is more complex and it will probably be the most difficult to understand public opinion in this matter.
