INTERVIEW. Deputy from Zelenski's party, Iuri Kamelciuk, on the corruption scandal: “Society is in a state of shock. Many lives would have been saved with the stolen money”

“Corruption in Energoatom was monitored for 15 months, although the energy sector generates 25% of the budget and should have been the first checked.”

Ukrainian MP Yuriy Kamelchiuk, representative of the People's Servant Party in the Verkhovna Rada, the formation created by Volodymyr Zelensky, explains in an interview for HotNews readers how the biggest corruption scandal in Ukraine's energy sector during the war was possible, why the control failed, what questions are looming over the National Anti-Corruption Bureau (NABU) and whether President Zelensky could know the situation until at the outbreak of a public scandal.

“One of them seems to have run away”

– Mr. Kamelchuk, you represent the “Servant of the People” party in the Verkhovna Rada. Two ministers were dismissed, the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Energy. There are official confirmed data about an investigation by the National Anti-Corruption Bureau. Before discussing the corruption scandal, I would like to ask you a question: where is the line between Russian propaganda and the correct, if unsavory, information currently affecting Ukraine's image internationally?
– Let's look at the situation briefly. Has corruption been detected? Yes, it was. NABU representatives monitored this corruption for 15 months. In fact, I think they could have noticed much earlier. He should, in fact, have reported it earlier, much earlier.

Why they monitored the violations at “Energoatom” for only 15 months is not very clear. Maybe they thought there were more important moments. However, in my opinion, it was this enterprise that needed to be checked first.

If we take the entire energy sector of Ukraine, it forms about 25% of the budget revenues. That's why it had to be looked at first. In the end, the situation is what it is.

They investigated, they found culprits. One of them apparently ran away. Ministers are being scrutinized, possibly in relation to each other, because there are records. I know that former minister Galushchenko already went to NABU to give explanations. We don't know the result yet. There is still no official charge against any minister. Parliament dismissed him. Now we will see who will be named next.

“It is inadmissible to work online in the supervisory board”

– Why was it possible to reach here, to a corruption scandal of such proportions?
– The control system was very weak. Supervisory boards worked inefficiently and carelessly. Moreover, some foreign members of the supervisory board of “Energoatom” and other enterprises were working online. I consider this inadmissible.

Even in wartime, they had to be on the spot, to understand the situation from the inside, not just on paper. They need to know, just like law enforcement, who should not be entrusted with responsibilities.

Those who build these schemes work for years. There may be several or dozens of such people. They are known “to the face”, and they always find access to the people who make decisions. This is where work needs to be done to stop these connections.

The activity of any ministry must be as transparent as possible. Don't lie and show all the processes. Because of this we now have problems with electricity, because the shelters were not built on time. We also have problems at the international level, because the amounts embezzled are huge, and the money should have been used for equipment and protection.

Unfortunately, it didn't happen. And there is another question for law enforcement: why, if they knew what was going on 15 months ago, no one was apprehended then? If they wanted to “not scare the big fish”, it is partly understandable. But now the whole society is waiting for results and convictions.

“The last place where there should be corruption is NABU”

– There are also questions about the activity of NABU prosecutors. Do you think there is outside influence on the investigation? And why for 15 months was it not made public that an investigation was taking place?
– As far as I understand, there is no influence. If anyone tries to negotiate, this matter belongs to NABU. They must have an internal system of protection against such situations.

There are many rumors. I would not like to repeat them, but it is said that one can also “negotiate” with some employees of NABU. This is inadmissible.

Given their salaries, their responsibilities and society's expectations, the last place where corruption should exist is NABU. Their powers have been restored. In fact, initially they were not reduced much, only the possibility of transferring some cases to the General Prosecutor's Office was introduced, in certain situations, which is according to the Constitution.

Now it has returned to the previous formula, as society and anti-corruption institutions demanded. I personally talked to each leader of the anti-corruption structures, asking what needs to be improved. There were no additional proposals.

“We want to see clear evidence”

– Another question: could President Zelenski know about what was happening before this scandal? Or suspect? The estimated damage is tens of millions, maybe more.
– I can neither confirm nor deny, I have no such information. If we assume that the president should personally deal with tenders and signatures at the level of energy companies – frankly, I doubt it. But we don't know for sure. Could he have influenced Andrii Ermak (head of the presidential administration in Kyiv – no)? We don't know that either. NABU records mention it in theory. We want to see clear evidence. But it seems that Ermak is very affected. After the meeting with the president, it was announced that some personnel decisions would be made in the next week or two. We'll see what happens next.

About how Timur Mindici, a close friend of Zelenski, left the country

– What can you tell us about Timur Mindici, considered a close friend or even a friend of President Zelenski from a media project he was involved with before his political career? We know he managed to leave Ukraine before he was arrested. How was it possible when men cannot leave the country?
– It is not true that no man can leave Ukraine. Officials with travel orders, men with three children, people with disabilities, guardians of minors, military personnel on leave can leave. Officials may leave the country for medical or personal reasons. I don't know Mindici's family situation. If there was no official possibility of departure, then the question is for law enforcement and those who control the border. Maybe he went through a river, on paths, we don't know. But as you can see, he was warned and left the country.

“I don't know if anyone hopes for the recovery of the money, maybe justice is more important”

– How did the Ukrainian society react? The country has been at war for four years, people are dying daily from Russian attacks, and now it is discovered that tens of millions have been stolen. How has society changed after this scandal?
– Probably, not tens of millions, but hundreds of millions of dollars. Society is in shock, frankly. If this money was used for protection, anti-missile systems, anti-drone, shelters, equipment for the military, we would have saved many lives.

Now the discovery that money has been taken out of the energy sector in such an amount puts society in shock and bewilderment – ​​why was there no control and how could it happen for so long. Everyone is waiting for the punishment of those responsible. I don't know if anyone is hoping for a refund, maybe justice is more important.

“Foreign partners are waiting for decisions”

– Do you, as a deputy and representative of the majority faction, feel people's indignation? What can you do to calm society?
– The maximum we can do is to intensify control over all state bodies that manage money, energy and allocations, including at the local level. And to quickly detect similar situations, punishing the offenders as severely as possible. In addition, the legislative framework needs to be tightened – higher penalties, higher fines, so that it is clear what awaits those who intend to commit acts of corruption.

– What is the reaction of international partners? This scandal has raised questions about how the money is used in other areas, including the military. Has the attitude towards Ukraine changed?
– At the current stage, all financial support plans remain in place. The partners understand that the energy sector is important, but it is not the only one that keeps Ukraine going. Our budget, especially the military, is huge – a world record. But they are waiting for decisions. He is waiting for the president to take a clear position on his chief of staff and for the law enforcement agencies to carry out the investigation without interference. And let's see not just an investigation, but a court decision.

“Particular people have moral, political and criminal responsibility”

– Who is to blame for this situation? Not necessarily names to give us any names, but let's talk general responsibility: lack of control, lack of harsher punishments? How could this happen at a time when the Ukrainian people are showing unity in the face of Russian attacks and some people are acting against the country?
– There are specific individuals who signed documents, organized tenders, approved companies, sometimes without tenders, or excluded other companies that offered lower prices. Behind all these actions are concrete people. And still concrete people have moral, political and criminal responsibility: to take or not to take a bribe, to participate or not in the scheme, to stop the risks and to collaborate with the anti-corruption bodies. Discussions with people who propose such schemes should be cut off from the start.